Curse

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Recharges would be either 8 or 12. Probably, anyway.

ensoriki · Dec 06, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Recharges would be either 8 or 12. Probably, anyway.

That would be inferior to the warrior in spiking
The sin spike should be stronger than the warrior spike to compensate for lack of consistant damage and staying power.

The warrior can survive better naturally, and has more command of damage.
Where as for assassin auto attacks to equal to a warriors is reliant completely on luck.

The idea of 8-12 recharges is unreliable.

Lead attacks should all follow recharges in between 1-5 with only 1 or 2 being 6 recharge.

Off hands should be somewhere from 3-6 recharge, with 1 or 2 exceptions

and duals should be 2-10 with about 1 or 2 exceptions

(by 2 I mean death blossom =P)

The thing with TF, 1 hit wonder for 10 energy.

If assassins are going L-O-D, TF isn't as dangerous as it is in an O-D-O-D combo do to its lengthy recharge, and remains that way even at 10 recharge do to DW not causing maximum hp loss twice.

For 10 energy on something that enables you to do about
a 66-75% spike (with some of my improvements) doesnt need 15 recharge and thus 10 is better.

Most other duals should have something around 4-8 recharge.

As an assassin Still needs to go through that combo Twice more often than naught to kill, it works out as if you heal the 1st combo in that down time, the assassin starts all over again.
The way to prevent that is for the assassin to bring interrupts or other forms of utility to stop them from repairing all the damage from the first combo.

This is what will give the required skill some people complain about.

8-10 recharge overall for the spike is to much for an L-O-D combo to remain efficient.

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

That would be inferior to the warrior in spiking
The sin spike should be stronger than the warrior spike to compensate for lack of consistant damage and staying power.
The warrior can survive better naturally, and has more command of damage.
Where as for assassin auto attacks to equal to a warriors is reliant completely on luck.
The idea of 8-12 recharges is unreliable.
Lead attacks should all follow recharges in between 1-5 with only 1 or 2 being 6 recharge.
Off hands should be somewhere from 3-6 recharge, with 1 or 2 exceptions
and duals should be 2-10 with about 1 or 2 exceptions
(by 2 I mean death blossom =P)
The thing with TF, 1 hit wonder for 10 energy.
If assassins are going L-O-D, TF isn't as dangerous as it is in an O-D-O-D combo do to its lengthy recharge, and remains that way even at 10 recharge do to DW not causing maximum hp loss twice.
For 10 energy on something that enables you to do about
a 66-75% spike (with some of my improvements) doesnt need 15 recharge and thus 10 is better.
Most other duals should have something around 4-8 recharge.
As an assassin Still needs to go through that combo Twice more often than naught to kill, it works out as if you heal the 1st combo in that down time, the assassin starts all over again.
The way to prevent that is for the assassin to bring interrupts or other forms of utility to stop them from repairing all the damage from the first combo.
This is what will give the required skill some people complain about.
8-10 recharge overall for the spike is to much for an L-O-D combo to remain efficient.

I disagree on the inferior spiking part. A Warrior does quite a bit less than 400 damage on one of their spikes.

Keep in mind that in this model the Assassin's spiking capability is almost a sub-objective; in reality you would be too busy disrupting and disabling other stuff to be able to cycle your chain on demand, and if you could cycle your chain on demand (or two seconds later) you would be causing quite a lot of pressure (over 50 dps) as well as being able to spike harder than a warrior, and still strictly maintain a positional advantage via shadow steps.

One would call it a different form of imba.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but:

Quote:

As an assassin Still needs to go through that combo Twice more often than naught to kill, it works out as if you heal the 1st combo in that down time, the assassin starts all over again.
The way to prevent that is for the assassin to bring interrupts or other forms of utility to stop them from repairing all the damage from the first combo.

If one thinks of this model as a gimped version of the current assassin, then obviously it is going to be underpowered.

And if the disruption is good enough that you can still chain through to get a kill, it will still be skill-less.

ensoriki · Dec 06, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Disruption is only skill less if your class had that skill-less disruption
I mean active disruption from
Disrupting stab/dagger
Meaning that the assassin watches his opponents skill bar to interrupt key skills.

Current Sin can go through his Combo Once and the target is dead, No whacking, no anything.
My damage ranges comes without the idea of criticals.
If an assassin is using skills to boost up his critical rate, his damage will be much betteron 60 AL.
Critical damage on 60 AL is 32 with + skills Jungle strike with condition met and critical will do around 80..100 damage.

My model (which probably sucks since it comes from me)
goes through his spike twice IF hes attacking a full hp target and is not using any other skills to ensure the kill. With Low recharges of 4-10 seconds this is not a huge problem
as recharges are still down time, thats the monks/rits/paragons leeway.

LaserLight · Dec 06, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I think you misunderstand. 400 damage is about 66% with a meta with 600 health characters.

Of course, in a meta with old sup rune characters, the 'sin would be imba like that.

I’m not trying to pick on ye Lightning, but I feel this point needs addressing.

The amount of damage permissible in an Assassin’s general skillchain is not fixed, but varies with the metagame as seen here. Back when superiors weren’t dirty things, a 300-damage spike would have been about as much as ye’d have been willing to go, eh? But in this day and age of characters who easily reach 600 Health or more, a 400-damage spike is alright. This, however, begs the question of responses to shifting meta. Are we going to see sweeping damage modifications to all of the Assassin’s skills every time the Standard Metagame Redbar Number moves?

It goes to show that you can’t micromanage a class this heavily without making it too unstable for its own good. Shifting skill damage that wildly as the meta changes, on top of basically completely overwriting every Assassin skill in the game, means that you’d end up with a huge number of very confused players trying to figure out just what the hell their character is actually supposed to do.

Ensoriki: I have to admit that most of your ideas don’t make much sense to me…you’re focusing way too much on arbitrary, confusing skill restrictions and figuring out weird ways to make lead/off/dual better than off/dual/off/dual. Why the shizwiggle do lead attacks need to all act like Moebius Strike now? o_O And adding a “this effect ends when *very specific anti-Sin action is taken* clause to half the skills in the game is not only nonintuitive and counterproductive, but is also an absolutely unacceptable level of micromanagement on Anet’s part. Same reasons I’m not a fan of Moriz’ original ideas for off-hands – crap just doesn’t make sense outside blatant skill arbitration to me.

Ye also have to realize that chain downtime is part of the balancing mechanic for Assassins. If an Assassin could simply blast out their chain without pause, string one into the other, then even I’d have to admit that the class would be hugely overpowered – that sort of lawn-mowing action’s a bit too hardcore for any sort of game even trying for balance. 8-12 recharge range is about the best ye could possibly hope for even if ArenaNet was prepared to completely redesign this class – which it isn’t.

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

I’m not trying to pick on ye Lightning,

No problem.

Addressing my part first...the main issue here is not the player-induced metagame, but of ANet changing basic game mechanics. A major reason why people run full health is because of VoD, coupled with the current restriction on armor swapping. Back when armor swapping was the norm, characters frequently had superior runes on.

Although that would be back in the Prophecies days.

And to respond to the other bit...the reason behind Moriz's skill changes is to give extra utility to offhands, which isn't all that bad. He's merely trying to give the skills inside a chain some use outside a chain.

ensoriki · Dec 06, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Using skills out of a chain arent as useful for an assassin as it is a warrior.
It does not do much for us. Moriz original idea was to put disability, this new idea would piss off not only pve sins but pvp sins in the fact the class has a new mechanic that changes almost everything!

Meh I guess 400 damage spike from L-O-D is to strong.
360 spike with 5+ recharge seems okay to me.
it would take around 3 seconds to go through L-O-D , do to attack speed.
then wait 5 seconds, then go through 3 seconds again.

Laser I wasnt trying to kill O-D-O-D
Its more of, Kill IAS's on a sin, 1 problem is addressed, weaken the damage and another 1 is addressed.
If L-O-D is doing 360 spikes O-D-O-D is doing 420--460 damage spikes.

Also too many skills are powerful enough now that going back to people with 480 hp or less is crazy.
Searing Flames would shred you in half.

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Less skill?

Lets put
LMS 4 recharge
Jungle Strike 5 ot 6 recharge
TF 8 or 10 recharge (I think 8 works best)
Add this clause to LMS
If this follows a dual attack you deal an additional +8....20....26 damage if it hits a crippled foe.
This damage is factored in before, you apply cripple which means you actually have to maintain cripple and follow a dual attack on an enemy.
Do it and you get a nice damage bonus.

This also makes L-O-D have a new principle.
The first time you use your combo its an opener.
The second time you use it, its stronger and a finisher.
Of course as you would see throughout the thread Other skills have this and do different things, Like unsuspecting strike now giving energy back, to reduce its cost.

And this won't be skill-less because...?

It just makes it way easier for the other characters to disrupt, it does not really make it more "skillful", as you're still just pressing buttons in order.

On the other hand, if it's still recharging, it'll just be gimped. I rather have a utility character with a very strong (but still requiring some support, or weakening) spike.

Quote:

This wont be skill less because
4 second recharge, with jungle strike 1/4 cast
it takes about 3-4 seconds to go through this combo.
LMS still has about 2 or 3 seconds left on its recharge, Jungle strike 4 or 5.
TF has quite a bit remaining.
So what do you do? If Cripple gets removed your screwed, if They heal up your screwed too because even with the LMS bonus condition you still wont kill them from 600 health.

Again, this does not mean it takes more skill to play. It merely means it takes less skill on the other team to react to it.

Which severely gimps the Assassin.

Another problem with this is people might start chaining L-O-D-L-O-D, which makes it even more ridiculous than is now...while still being probably gimped.

[quote]You take interruption.
Mindless interruption is bad, if a ranger is just spamming Distracting Shot I dont want him on my team. If an assassin is just spamming Disrupting dagger/stab/Distracting blow I dont want him on my team also.
The sin has to time its interrupts, and if he doesn't any good monk is going to heal up and remove cripple
LMS also requires them to be moving, while not super skillful, you at least need to be watching the field instead of
C space, 12345678 while your looking at the tv.[quote]

Sorry, I don't get what you're trying to say here...

Quote:

If you don't think this will be better than the current L-O-D sin..im sorry for you Lightning.
It may not be the skill You want it to take.
But its much better than O-D-O-D is, and actually its about as skillful as a warrior.
Shadow steps remove the idea of positioning however, but with less staying power and a linebacker still being more consistant in its pressure, the assassin really does Minispikes
These mini spikes are screwed up if hes not interrupting/KD Whatever, or getting support from his team.

The whole idea is that even if Assassins have the strongest single-character spike in the game, at least make it so that it needs support to kill.

And if such rigid skill chaining exists, then Assassins are always going to be a "gimmick" class.

And to your interrupting/KD statement...he already does (should be doing) plenty of that.

Quote:

Makes the assassin more of a team player.
Sure the assassin will probably still have some of those 1 spike kill techniques.
Heres something to consider tho
If all warrior IAS's except for Flurry and Frenzy are reduced to 2 seconds at 0 attribute points, that removes a bit of the insta-gib problem.
If Bestial Fury ends if you use a dagger attack, thats fine too (rangers don't need to be using dagger attacks anyways, and thus will not gimp the ranger)

The sin is left with Frenzy and Flurry
Frenzy requires 2 slots
itself and cancel stance.
Flurry is not as effective as frenzy even on the assassin and flurry ending if you use a dual attack is also nice. (hey pve has critical agility)

Without a PvP IAS most insta-gib begins to weaken.
Then with nerfs like

GPS getting a damage nerf but now doing Burning if it follows a lead.
Also weakens instagib O-D-O-D

BSS returning to 5 energy and getting a damage and poison duration nerf and turning to lets say 20 recharge and having this clause
If this follows a lead attack this skill recharges 14 seconds faster and does an additiona x...x damage also balances it out.

O-D-O-D will become weakened, while because its so strong even this nerfs will not kill it. It will not be so strong as to insta-gib a target in a split second do to lack of an IAS (except for frenzy) or cause the same damage it does now.
It will just be viable. You will get a bit more damage from it, but at the lost of bar compression, L-O-D would have better bar compression (be less 1234567) and have more room for utility

O-D-O-D would be more 1234567 and more damage (Not as strong as it is now though) and easier to stop, cost more energy, less space on your bar for utility etc.

I'll reply to that with a general statement, as it's easier that way. Pardon me if any of this doesn't make sense.

As said before, Assassins' spikes are either overpowered or underpowered. There is no middle ground. If O-D-O-D is sufficiently nerfed to the point that it's easily disrupted and/or reacted to, people will just stop running it - and if it isn't, people will continue to run it due to it not being easily disrupted and/or reacted to. There is no middle ground where it's "just viable". People will only run it if it is overpowered, as there are better options available if it isn't.

Quote:

For utility lets say we both mark of insecurity and add
There enchantments and stances also cost an additional 5 energy the skill becomes better, better on flag runners, better on general use, better overall.
for 10 recharge, decent duration. enchantment and stance duration decrease...its good.

I'll leave the utility to the general concept I have (i.e. I'm not going to comment).

Quote:

If Shadow shroud was
All enchantments spells cast on target foe fail for x...x duration
it be better as right now self enchantments still work, making its use limited.

Its uses will still be limited to a very, dare I say, gimmicky role, due to the nature of the skill.

Quote:

t does not do much for us. Moriz original idea was to put disability, this new idea would piss off not only pve sins but pvp sins in the fact the class has a new mechanic that changes almost everything!

His original idea was to have Offhands do something other than being in a chain, as well as disabling for the sake of balance.

I hardly think the PvP community will cry about that. The PvE sins would cry though.

Quote:

Meh I guess 400 damage spike from L-O-D is to strong.
360 spike with 5+ recharge seems okay to me.
it would take around 3 seconds to go through L-O-D , do to attack speed.
then wait 5 seconds, then go through 3 seconds again.

And this goes back to above. If Assassins are just going to go back to chaining stuff after stuff, what does it change aside from the fact that Assassins are now really gimped?

EDIT: After reading again, it seems that I've misinterpreted what you said. Yes, attacks out of order are absolutely horrid when compared to a Warrior; however, neither of them tends to use attacks out of order anyway. Also, isn't the whole point of the addition of Offhand utility to compensate for this?

Sniffy · Dec 06, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Are you talking to Moriz Or Lightninghell?
Also I now own this thread >.>

Anyways alot of people complain about shadow steps, because the assassin just appears behind them.

This is still not a problem except for Dark Prison/Shadow Prison

Where even if you move as soon as you see that puff of smoke, your snared anyways.

I was trying to quote Lazerlight and just had a little technical bug.

Originally Posted by LightningHell
Recharges would be either 8 or 12. Probably, anyway.

I'm *guessing* the recharges should be shorter, like 6-10, with the exception of some way to keep spamming DB to help PvE sins. *But,* I'm also *guessing*, the shadow steps recharges should be geared toward double the chain attack recharges. That way you don't get sins warping all over the place every 6-10 seconds (depending on the useful effects a teleport may or may not provide) and it would be geared more toward teleporting every other spike recharge time. Though if the sin is not in a dangerous position, he could stick around wherever he teleported to. Because I'm guessing being able to teleport with effects that often would be incredibly overpowered, but trying to use something like Dark Prison (30r) or <shudder> Shadow Fang (45) with a chain that recharges in 6-10 seconds is ridiculous. Though I like the idea of just a basic teleport with no real additional effects that someone mentioned to help get a sin into a good position, but with no *automatic* snare.

For an effect snare shadow step perhaps something like:
Shadow Fang: Attribute Deadly Arts 5e 15r 0.25 cast:Teleport to target foe's location for 1-9 seconds. Target foe moves 33% slower for 1-9 seconds. When this hex ends, you teleport back to the location you teleported from and target foe suffers from deep wound for 14-7 seconds.
While I still like the idea of tri attacks for various reasons, I realize this would require an entirely new game mechanic and thus be impractical. Instead, perhaps they could make some dual attacks follow other dual attacks, and disable off-hands, and either entirely get rid of leads or convert them to dual following duals. These dual following dual attacks would be where most of the spike comes from. This is an attempt to
3. Make assassin chains slightly less fragile, while still making them perfectly blockable.
2. Limit ridiculously long 1234567 chains as the second dual disables off-hands.
1. Bar compression is ftw as it would allow sins to pack a little more survivability and disruption giving them a more versatile role in the metagame then overpoweredly killing people or underpoweredly not.

Yes? No?

Shinde · Dec 07, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

All this Theory Wars seems futile imo.

Sniffy · Dec 07, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

It probably is.

LightningHell · Dec 07, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Remember that having a second Dual attack will result in a significantly more powerful attack, as even in the new system the Dual attack will most probably be the large hitter in the whole combo. In light of that, double-duals in a combination in a metagame where L-O-D is perfectly balanced will result in the double-dual combo being overpowered, and where L-O-D-D is balanced, L-O-D will be way underpowered. And I would prefer L-O-D over L-O-D-D, for obvious reasons.

I haven't actually thought about how to remodel Shadow Steps, mm.

Theory wars is all we can get when you can't get the changes in the game.

Sniffy · Dec 07, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Remember that having a second Dual attack will result in a significantly more powerful attack, as even in the new system the Dual attack will most probably be the large hitter in the whole combo. In light of that, double-duals in a combination in a metagame where L-O-D is perfectly balanced will result in the double-dual combo being overpowered, and where L-O-D-D is balanced, L-O-D will be way underpowered. And I would prefer L-O-D over L-O-D-D, for obvious reasons.

I haven't actually thought about how to remodel Shadow Steps, mm.

Theory wars is all we can get when you can't get the changes in the game.

I was proposing getting rid of leads so the chain would to O-D-DD as a way of making the assassin chain slightly harder to disrupt. Also it would increase energy gain slightly which you would need if you'd be spamming attacks that often, and it'd be nice to run some combos with minimal energy management attacks.

However, if they could get L-O-D to the point where it would do actually respectable amounts of damage, that'd work to.

If we would (rofl) all come to a consensus about something that would work, would there be some way to notify ANET to have them consider it or are we just royally stuck?

ensoriki · Dec 08, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

LoDD? Say what Lightning?

O-D-O-D won't necessarily be imba with LoD is balanced.

Why?
Lets look at the lead skip skills
Palm Strike
Black Spider Strike
Golden Phoenix Strike
Falling Spider
and I think 1 more skill.

Falling spider is fine, by ummm popular demand.
Palm is elite and not even a wonderful elite.

GPS can take a damage nerf.
And then inflict burning if it follows a lead attack.
Something similar with BSS.

Or
If this skill does not follow a lead attack you suffer from weakness for 10 seconds.

put to GPS and BSS

Bobby2 · Dec 08, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Lets look at the lead skip skills
Palm Strike
Black Spider Strike
Golden Phoenix Strike
Falling Spider
and I think 1 more skill.

Falling spider is fine, by ummm popular demand.
Palm is elite and not even a wonderful elite.

You're missing Falling Lotus Strike (better than the Spider IMO). If Palm Strike had been a dagger attack instead of a touch skill, you'd see it EVERYWHERE (because it would count for BoS).

LightningHell · Dec 08, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

I was proposing getting rid of leads so the chain would to O-D-DD as a way of making the assassin chain slightly harder to disrupt. Also it would increase energy gain slightly which you would need if you'd be spamming attacks that often, and it'd be nice to run some combos with minimal energy management attacks.

However, if they could get L-O-D to the point where it would do actually respectable amounts of damage, that'd work to.

Okay...but this is really no more different than an L-O-D chain, however I look at it. Mind explaining how it's different?

Quote:

If we would (rofl) all come to a consensus about something that would work, would there be some way to notify ANET to have them consider it or are we just royally stuck?

Probably wouldn't.

Sniffy · Dec 08, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

It would not be a significant change, the tri attacks would have been more significant. The advantages would be
1. Increased hit per chain.
For example, you go up to a warrior, you do your lead, and he hits "riposte" just as you do your off hand. Since the max damage would have to be achieved by dual to prevent L-O-L-O spamming, you're just kind of stuck.
Same thing with "Guardian," if your foe has guardian on, the probability of you going L-O-D and getting through both your lead *and* your dual is less than 1/4. Don't ask me for the equation on that, my brain is fried right now but probability of L=1/2 O=1/2 but if lead get's blocked, off hand becomes 0/1. Anyways, adding in an extra attack as the same attack would increase your chance of at least using all your attack skills to some effect. Guardian would still block and thus still be useful, but it will decrease the chance of you being stuck and losing your energy investment. Otherwise a monk using Guardian could out last pretty much any assassin damage wise mostly just by using "guardian", as the unblockable combos don't do as much damage. I'll try and make this one shorter....
2. Additional hit means 1 more energy if you have zealous and 1-3 more if you crit. Assassins would need a fair amount of energy to be running combos every 8-10 seconds and providing some disruption and self-heal in the mean time.

So, the change is not as good or as significant as the tri attacks would be (imho) but I realize that would require a whole new mechanic and is thus even more impractical than most of the other ideas I come up with.

LaserLight · Dec 09, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Sniffy, the concept of 'Dual Attack' comes from the fact that Assassins carry two daggers. a Dual Attack is the act of striking with both daggers essentially simultaneously.

With the exception of a specific notable One Piece character, I haven't seen many people use three blades at the same time. And frankly, an Assassin's mask would get in the way of clenching a dagger in their teeth. Nor are their toes all that dexterous. Kinda leaves out tri attacks as an option, eh? One hit per blade, man.

LightningHell · Dec 09, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

So, basically the change asks for a single increased attack hit? Because otherwise all you're doing is shifting Offhands to the Lead position, Duals to the Offhand position, and Dual-after-Duals into the Dual position.

Not to say, you can't make your chain more flexible via any modification of the "Offhand" ability.

ensoriki · Dec 09, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Lightning I've been thinking.
The idea of assassins are either to weak or to strong and no borderline.
I'm now sure thats false.

The evidence is not long, its a small statement.
A-net throughout factions lifespan has buffed dagger attacks primarily, and not much of the other skills. We can say there is no borderline because we cannot see it happening. In Deadly and Shadow arts there are few skills strong enough to support an assassin, this is one of the problems.

When you have lines that are unbalanced you can only presume that a class can only be unbalanced in weakness or strength.
Had A-net taken time or decides to take time to help out Deadly arts and shadow arts. Problems with the daggers would be exponentially easier to deal with.
There is a middle line, but it means not just the daggers, but two crappy attributes.